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   ► MB LobbyC++ BoardC++Builder Topic   Print This     

C++, Java and Simple Stuff

C++, Java and Simple Stuff in C++Builder topic (part of our C++ group).

Quick Search: C Java   C Java Simple  
brian p kim
 (Inactive)
Honolulu
I am contemplating learning Java. I have exposure to C++, and a registered owner of CBuilder 3.0 Pro. But my exposure is barely past following examples in C++Builder Unleashed. Kind of like "I know how to turn it on and do seven things."

If I want to stay simple and do discrete stuff on Win 98 where the data sources are everyday Win Office-like apps (includes HTML and XML docs), then C++Builder or JBuilder?

Over the years, I have mainly "programmed" near the user interface levels. Ie. Lotus 123 macros, Torbo Pascal 3.0 matrixes (only for string manipulation, no numerical analysis involved), {Paradox, Lotus 123, Quattro Pro, WordPerfect} homomorphic transformations (I moved data between the applications - not always exact, but close enough to fix easily), Excel VBA, Crystal Reports on SQL 7.0, and even octal-based translations of dates, number, and strings on a HP 48SX (my favorite computer!).

So I'm a generalist. I played with different projects of my own design at home, and learned techniques (and vocabulary) which worked "at work." Is there still a place for hobbyist like me in today's world?

I'm considering a relaxed return to programming in a full-blown development environment like C++Builder or JBuilder. Is "relaxed" possible?

At the moment, the most appealing kind of programming seems to be console applications, because I find interface design tiresome, and the things I do for myself are generally file location specific, limited by the memory of the principal user, and elementary.

For example, the latest thing I did had a three button interface with a descriptive text on the side to remind me what it does and where it's getting it from.

Any suggestions?

Thanks,
Brian
 Posted 21 years ago (Thread Starter)
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Post ID #4091, 8 replies
Thread Started 10/18/2001 11:06:00 AM
View Counter=4359
Last Reply Posted 2/3/2003 12:06:00 PM)
Location=Honolulu  
Joined=21 years ago   MB Posts=41  
brian p kim
 (Inactive)
Honolulu
Aloha you all. Happy New Year.

Thanks to Leo, Scott and David. I was surprised to see the posts. Thanks for the time and thought.

I've "been away". Aside from sporadic temporary work, setting up a flat file database and procedures for a my class reunion (in PDX 9), and the Perl CGI (on a personal webserver) for Acrobat 5 (from a FrameMaker 6/7 authored form), I haven't come around and returned to C++Builder 3 or JBuilder 1. Yeah ... it's been a long time since I've looked at a full blown development environment.

Back to C++ and Java, and "simple discrete stuff" - I have a question from another dimension. In these days of "web applications", do both C++ and Java require client-side installs?

Where am I coming from? Since I want to do "simple discrete stuff", suppose I complete a program at home on my Windows OS of choice, and want to run it on a different personal computer, call it pc_X. If I want my program to be self-contained, ie. all my program files are isolated in their own folders / directories, and no changes are required to pc_X's system files (aside from an easy edit of the path setting), are there C++ or Java advantages?

The ideal situation is pre-registry-like install / uninstall. (1) Copy the contents of a 1.4 MB diskette to an isolated folder on pc_X's hard drive for speed (or run it from A:); (2) Run the executable without rebooting; and (3) When done, delete the isolated folder, and quit.

Let's assume my program requirements include only the existence of a Windows OS version(s) and a variety of browser(s), eg. versions of IE and Navigator from 4, Opera 6, or Mozilla 1.

Motivation - Long ago, back in the Borland Office days, I chose Paradox over Access because of the *.mdb. I thought it would be simpler when doing maintenance to be able to grab one file, like a *.rdl and / or a *.dm, edit it and return it. As compared to a *.mdb. Is this concept unworthy?

Thanks,
Brian
 Posted 19 years ago (Thread Starter)
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Post ID #8974 (Level 1.1)  Reply to 4091
Thread Started 1/28/2003 10:38:00 AM
View Counter=2
Location=Honolulu  
Joined=21 years ago   MB Posts=41  
brian p kim
 (Inactive)
Honolulu
Thanks Scott.

Guess it's difficult to write self-contained programs nowadays. I'm mainly trying to avoid changing the user's PC. Which assumes I can know what is already on the user's PC. And that appears to be pretty slippery.

Looks like I'll have to focus on *.bat and *.cmd. Or maybe JavaScript in a *.htm. I'm not a fan of Visual Basic. Makes me feel too dependant.

I seem to spend a lot of time with file management. I was hoping to carry plain text routines around with me on 3-1/2" disks. Like Paradox scripts. Or Perl programs.

Perl seems most attractive to me. It seems to hold much promise for easing the pain many of my mundane tasks. But in the Windows world, doesn't seem like many admin types "need" it.

Guess I'll keep looking ....

Thanks again.
Brian
 Posted 19 years ago (Thread Starter)
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Post ID #8988 (Level 1.2)  Reply to 4091
Reply Posted 1/31/2003 11:56:00 PM
Location=Honolulu  
Joined=21 years ago   MB Posts=41  
David Peacock
Adelaide, South Australia
I am a C++ programmer and am currently developing a commercial application using C++ Builder 6.0 Pro.

A while ago, I spent some time learning Java and writing some test applications for learning sake. It was good fun to get things like the JDBC:ODBC links working, etc.

But when it comes down to it, a program has to "perform" excellently. Every unnecessary second your user has to sit and wait around for your program to perform a task simply adds to the cummulative frustration users feel when spending large amounts of time in front of a PC.

I found that the Java Runtime Engine simply could not come close to competing with the compiled C++ Builder program and began very quickly to get frustrated with how long the Java program would take to complete tasks.

Recently I was given a demonstration of a commercial application being written in Java. The software was very slow and I assumed that this was due to a lot of network access to a server. However it turned out that a significant amount of this time was simply waiting for the software to complete tasks. And the resources required on the machine were enourmous!!

I may simply have not had enough exposure to Java, but for the moment I'll wait for some significant performance improvements.

David.
 Posted 19 years ago
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Post ID #8901 (Level 1.3)  Reply to 4091
Reply Posted 1/12/2003 8:50:00 PM
Location=Adelaide, South Australia  
Joined=20 years ago   MB Posts=6  
Scott Wehrly
Prestwood IT
 (Inactive)
Las Vegas, NV USA
And allow me to offer another plus for C++Builder. Borland includes office automation components in BCB version 4 and up that integrate very cleanly with all MS Office apps. I haven't seen JBuilder 4 or newer, but I would assume that the same office automation components are included.



Another plus is that the most current version of C++Builder supports XML data streams. And you should know that pretty much any Delphi book can also be used for C++Builder - the VCL is identical! It's not that hard to be bilingual in both languages. The Unleashed Series was my favorite (until Mr. Calvert became a Linux convert), but there are a great number of excellent books that can show you how to do a lot of cool stuff in Delphi/C++Builder. (For example, I'm using the Delphi Game Programming DirectX/OpenGL books to write RPGs, and every code snippet could be used in C++Builder).
 Posted 20 years ago
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Post ID #8715 (Level 1.4)  Reply to 4091
Reply Posted 12/19/2002 6:47:00 AM
Location=Las Vegas, NV USA 
Joined=20 years ago   MB Posts=442   KB Posts=19  
Scott Wehrly
Prestwood IT
 (Inactive)
Las Vegas, NV USA

do both C++ and Java require client-side installs?

Well, with Borland C++Builder - you build self-contained applications by default in the IDE. There is a way to release minimized application executables that link to the Borland Runtime Libraries at run time, but the only advantage to that is if your customers already have those runtime libraries installed.



By contrast, Java applications traditionally run against a particular version of JVM libraries (Java Virtual Machine). The applications are smaller than a full-blown C++ equivalent, but once again, the JVM must be installed on the machine.



I'm not familiar enough with JBuilder to know if it offers a stand-alone executable option. If it does, then the choice of language is moot. Just pick whichever Borland environment you want to work in.


and want to run it on a different personal computer, call it pc_X.

If this choice includes Linux machines, then the answer changes. With C++, you would need to compile the application to the kernel you are targeting. The good news here is that C++Builder is easily available for Linux.



With Java, the solution is far more portable. JBuilder code from a Windows application is mostly transferrable to Linux (the exception being platform-specific functionality like ShellAPI routines).
 Posted 19 years ago
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Post ID #8975 (Level 1.5)  Reply to 4091
Reply Posted 1/28/2003 11:41:00 AM
Location=Las Vegas, NV USA 
Joined=20 years ago   MB Posts=442   KB Posts=19  
Scott Wehrly
Prestwood IT
 (Inactive)
Las Vegas, NV USA
I almost forgot...


The ideal situation is pre-registry-like install / uninstall.

What you describe is precisely what InstallShield, Wise, or even GP-Install does when the installation is run. The setup files are temporarily copied to the designated TEMP folder, and deleted automatically when the install finishes. You may have noticed the message "InstallShield needs to copy the setup files..." at the beginning of an installation. Now that



InstallShield is scriptable, so if you want to run your EXE once and then delete it, that can be done in InstallShield.



However, if what you're aiming for is to run an executable on a target machine without actually leaving the file on the machine, then you're describing the functionality of a Java applet running from a web server. The caution there is that in these days of pop-up spammage, a lot of people are blocking applets in their browser.
 Posted 19 years ago
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Post ID #8977 (Level 1.6)  Reply to 4091
Reply Posted 1/28/2003 12:02:00 PM
Location=Las Vegas, NV USA 
Joined=20 years ago   MB Posts=442   KB Posts=19  
Most Recent Post
Scott Wehrly
Prestwood IT
 (Inactive)
Las Vegas, NV USA

I seem to spend a lot of time with file management. I was hoping to carry plain text routines around with me on 3-1/2" disks.

Reminds me of my early tech support days, when I routinely carried around a 5-disk set of floppies with Norton Commander and my PC Magazine bag-o-tricks utilities. (This would be a good place to put a dinosaur or Rip Van Winkle graemlin if we had one...) Big Grin!



If that's where you're headed, you might try surfing around
Old UBB Archived Link: [URL=http://www.downloads.com]Downloads.Com[/URL]
or
Old UBB Archived Link: [URL=http://www.files32.com]Files32.Com[/URL]
or even
Old UBB Archived Link: [URL=http://www.tucows.com]TuCows[/URL]
, to see if anyone else has "invented that wheel". There are thousands of Windows utility programs in the Shareware/Freeware world that you could fit on a floppy and carry around. Many of them were written in C or C++, and optimized for size.
 Posted 19 years ago
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Post ID #9001 (Level 1.7)  Reply to 4091
Reply Posted 2/3/2003 12:06:00 PM
Location=Las Vegas, NV USA 
Joined=20 years ago   MB Posts=442   KB Posts=19  
Leo
Civilized Africa
Hi Brian
I have to admit that I'm not objective. I love C++ and I hate Java. I did some Pascal programming in school and I was very impressed how much more powerfull C++ feels in comparison. There is actually a while-do loop as well as a do-while where the condition is tested at the end of the loop, thus the first repeat is manditory. In school we had to learn a pascal bubble sort function that consisted several screens full of code - in C++ that same job is done in three lines if you're carefull.

I think your choice is between learning Java from scratch and expanding your knowledge of C++.

The reason I hate Java is that it differs from C++ just enough to really confuse everything you thought you knew: Where its int in c++ its integer in Java; If C++ has a lower case letter, Java has a capital. Also Java was designed with a specific purpose in mind: Portable code that plays in a sandbox. It is unable to do more advanced things like memory management and the programmer has no controll over pointers. You could write a game for a cellphone in Java if the phone is java enabled and you should be quite sure the Java security features won't allow your cell to dail out without your permision or electricute the cat or something. But if you ever want to do something advanced like an oprerating system or a hardware driver Java can't do it and you'll have to learn C++. I bet you'd be irritated with C++ the way I am with Java if you learnt Java first, because every thing is just a little different. Of course since you only want to stay with simple stuff as a hobby you may never develop an operating system or a hardware driver. But then you may never develop a game for your cellhone, or the web in java either. I recon the things that makes java special are things you're not going to use, appart from garbage collection and memmory management. But Builder adds those to C++. For a generalist I'd recomend C++.

Anyhow. To my knowledge JBuilder and C++ Builder have very similar interfaces that works a lot like Delphi. Borland has gone to lots of trouble makeing interface design in Builder childsplay, every thing is click and paste. The only diference is the language the code is writen in. I'll leave that up to you since I already said where I stand on that. Hope you choose C++ though :)
Another Leo
_ _ ___________________ _ _
We are Micro$oft
You will be assimilated
Resistance is futile
 Posted 20 years ago
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Post ID #8706 (Level 1.8)  Reply to 4091
Reply Posted 12/18/2002 10:12:00 PM
Location=Civilized Africa  
Joined=20 years ago   MB Posts=96  

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